Regarding the calculations between Atk% x Elemental DMG% [25]
Well, some of you followed my previous post, where we started a mini-discussion about it. While searching the internet, I found the game's damage formula on prydwen, And her results matched my tests, which gave me enough confidence to do some free calculations.
It is: Final Damage = ATK Based Final Card Multiplier x Final ATK x 0.35 x ( 1 + Elemental DMG% Boost ) x ( 1 + Mechanic DMG% Boost ) x ( Enemy Defense Multiplier ) x ( 1 + Crit DMG )
For my own convenience, since it only involves multiplication, my calculations were done using only the first half, to have a raw value, i've used: ATK Based Final Card Multiplier x Final ATK x 0.35 x ( 1 + Elemental DMG% Boost )
I performed 40 calculations in total, using the following logic:
1. Use different card multipliers, ranging from 100% to 500%, which led me to perform 10 calculations for each attack value (5 using +25% ATK, and 5 using 16% Elemental DMG)
2. Use different base attack values to see how the numbers behave and how significant that difference would be when reaching real in-game values.
The base attack values used were: 100, 200, 400, 800 and the card multipliers used were: 100%, 200%, 300%, 400%, 500%, And the results were as follows:
---
DMG = Card Multi × Final ATK × 0.35 × (1 + Elemental DMG)
( Card Multi% conversion: 100% = 1.00; 200% = 2.00 etc.)
---
📌 Elemental DMG = 0% (1.00)
Base ATK = 100
1. 1.00 × 125 × 0.35 = 43.75
2. 2.00 × 125 × 0.35 = 87.50
3. 3.00 × 125 × 0.35 = 131.25
4. 4.00 × 125 × 0.35 = 175.00
5. 5.00 × 125 × 0.35 = 218.75
Base ATK = 200
6. 1.00 × 250 × 0.35 = 87.50
7. 2.00 × 250 × 0.35 = 175.00
8. 3.00 × 250 × 0.35 = 262.50
9. 4.00 × 250 × 0.35 = 350.00
10. 5.00 × 250 × 0.35 = 437.50
Base ATK = 400
11. 1.00 × 500 × 0.35 = 175.00
12. 2.00 × 500 × 0.35 = 350.00
13. 3.00 × 500 × 0.35 = 525.00
14. 4.00 × 500 × 0.35 = 700.00
15. 5.00 × 500 × 0.35 = 875.00
Base ATK = 800
16. 1.00 × 1000 × 0.35 = 350.00
17. 2.00 × 1000 × 0.35 = 700.00
18. 3.00 × 1000 × 0.35 = 1050.00
19. 4.00 × 1000 × 0.35 = 1400.00
20. 5.00 × 1000 × 0.35 = 1750.00
---
📌 Elemental DMG = 16% (1.16)
Multiplier Conversion = 0.35 × 1.16 = 0.406
Base ATK = 100
21. 1.00 × 100 × 0.406 = 40.60
22. 2.00 × 100 × 0.406 = 81.20
23. 3.00 × 100 × 0.406 = 121.80
24. 4.00 × 100 × 0.406 = 162.40
25. 5.00 × 100 × 0.406 = 203.00
Base ATK = 200
26. 1.00 × 200 × 0.406 = 81.20
27. 2.00 × 200 × 0.406 = 162.40
28. 3.00 × 200 × 0.406 = 243.60
29. 4.00 × 200 × 0.406 = 324.80
30. 5.00 × 200 × 0.406 = 406.00
Base ATK = 400
31. 1.00 × 400 × 0.406 = 162.40
32. 2.00 × 400 × 0.406 = 324.80
33. 3.00 × 400 × 0.406 = 487.20
34. 4.00 × 400 × 0.406 = 649.60
35. 5.00 × 400 × 0.406 = 812.00
Base ATK = 800
36. 1.00 × 800 × 0.406 = 324.80
37. 2.00 × 800 × 0.406 = 649.60
38. 3.00 × 800 × 0.406 = 974.40
39. 4.00 × 800 × 0.406 = 1299.20
40. 5.00 × 800 × 0.406 = 1624.00
---
Comparison of results; (25%ATK/16%Element DMG)
43.75 / 40.60
87.50 / 81.20
131.25 / 121.80
175.00 / 162.40
218.75 / 203.00
87.50 / 81.20
175.00 / 162.40
262.50 / 243.60
350.00 / 323.80
437.50 / 406.00
175.00 / 162.40
350.00 / 324.80
525.00 / 487.20
700.00 / 649.60
875.00 / 812.00
350.00 / 324.80
700.00 / 649.60
1050.00 / 974.40
1400.00 / 1299.20
1750.00 / 1624.00
---
Conclusion: ATK% main stat is slightly better than Elemental DMG%.
Important notes:
1. The difference is very small, therefore, if you have a piece with Justice DMG for example, and good substats: (Flat ATK, Crit Rate, Health, ATK%) where upon evolving the piece it rolled good flat ATK values, so yes, this piece is definitely worth it.
2. ATK% is more accessible for various characters, so if you're in the early/mid game, that's another reason to focus on that for your DPS.
3. In addition to calculating with this formula (which is not official, although it has reliable results), I also tested it in-game, using pieces with sub-attributes that did not influence the result (such as Health% or Ego Recov.) with the same card, without using extra multipliers (Morale, Vulnerability, etc.), against the same mob, and ATK% did indeed perform slightly better.
P.S.: Yes, I can be wrong, but all the tests I've done corroborate to this conclusion about which main stat to aim if you're min maxing ir aiming for big numbers.
Edit: As Rinkano pointed out, considering that your build will have multiple stat sources, which adds additive and multiplicative factors to the calculation formulas, Elemental damage becomes increasingly valuable and attractive.
When you take into account that you have 3 pieces of 25% attack, for a character with a base attack of 500, we have;
500 + (500 × 0.25 × 3)
= 500 + 375
= 875
1.0 × 875 × 0.35 × 1
875 × 0.35 = 306.25
Against 2 pieces of 25% attack and 1 with elemental DMG:
500 + (500 × 0.25 × 2)
= 500 + 250
= 750
1.0 × 750 × 0.35 × 1.16
750 × 0.35 × 1.16 = 304.5
Now, considering that we have 6 pieces of equipment, the additional partner stats, and the attribute gains from the zero/codex system and the equipment found in chaos, I will take the liberty of to change my conclusion and say that the more investment your character has, element DMG will indeed provide you more numbers ( Focusing on attack is still more appealing in the early mid-game because it's easier to farm and use across multiple characters. However, when it comes to optimization, Check if your character's additional attribute is equal to or greater than 50%~ of the base attribute, as this will mean that having more elemental damage will be more beneficial. )
To enter a comment Log In Please
This is my Renoa stats, I'm wondering if it's better to change void 16% to 25% attack. I guess it's better keep it right? With +8% crit from partner, the elements damage better to stacked up with crit damage if I understand correctly, especially with void damage weakness
In the case of your Renoa, her attack is already high enough that elemental damage capitalization would be better; you can keep her stats as they are, she's great !!
GlltyThanks bro, appreciate it 🫡
damn this Renoa is so good, I'm honestly jealous.
Thanks for doing this bro, this will be useful for future reference. 🫡
Gunner > Hunter > Striker > Psionic > Vanguard > Controller ( i dont remember if controller have more or less atk than Vanguard, so i may be wrong on these two )
Hmm, I plugged in my numbers, and my thoughts are still the same as before. Gear, partner, and memory fragment flat attack benefits from elementals, which nonstrikers with an attack base well below strikers need. HOWEVER, if you are a low level with no access to max gear, I recommend attack % on both slots and crit rate as the 3rd. Also base attack of 500 doesn’t exist. If there was 1000 base attack, attack % all the way.
500 was an illustrative value, since at level 60 characters reach close to that amount, Yes, that's exactly what I said. When you factor in the entire build, the more investment you have in your character's stats (through substats, partners, equipment, zero archive) the more value your elemental damage will have, And once again we agree that yes, attack/crit rate/attack is the best combination when you're starting to build..
GlltyI stand corrected. My Veronica is over 500 though she benefits from extra damage. I assumed your Haru was at level 50 or something since it’s been a while since her release. Didn’t know you haven’t started on her though you didn’t mention it.
S1762120959008728Nevermind, we’re broke lmao
S1762120959008728I only mentioned 500 for ease of calculation, and because it's a realistic value; also, hunters and gunners have more Atk than strikers; Yes, I started on Haru, but I only level my characters up to level 55, to have more variety for now, and because it's absurdly expensive to go from that to 60.
S1762120959008728strikers can only reach 476 Atk on levels alone, Veronica and Hugo have the highest base atk in game, since they're both Gunners
Edited for greater accuracy.
For science!
Thank you for your work! If the calculation was correct, then this is expected yes, as you only have multiplicative factors in your formula. So multiplying one of them with 25% will always be better than multiplying another one by 16%. The problem is: there are also additive factors.
Characters have a base attack, when you click on your character stats you'll see it as the grey number under "Attack", bonuses like this +25% will only work for the base stat, but not for the green Att value. The same thing is for elemental damage as well.
So if you already have a lot of bonuses to your ATT, then +25% to base will be "swallowed up" a lot.
For example my Hugo on
For 25% ATT: 514X1.25 + 323 = 965.5 ATT up from 837, that's only a 15% increase; while for him - having no other elemental damage - the 16% increase of the elemental damage piece is actually slightly better. It's really a case-by-case evaluation, but prydwens recommendations on the character page are correct.
Yes, that's correct, which is why I mentioned below that my calculation only takes into account ONE memory fragment. When you start factoring in the rest of the build, then yes, elemental damage becomes increasingly valuable. I was just doing calculations taking into account two other pieces with +25% Attack, Once I'm finished, I'll edit the post and add some more information that I didn't take into account myself; Thank you for pointing that out.
Glltythank you for your dedication!
Honestly it's really difficult to factor in whole builds, as many stats only get calculated once you enter a dungeon. So we're getting to the "partner"-calculation problems (ATT bonus from partner for example doesn't show up until you're in the dungeon), but we're also facing problem with the chaos zero unlockable bonuses, we have to consider our characters getting weapons to wield etc. So I personally don't usually go down the path of calculating it fully. But it's fun to see people try to go down that incredibly complicated rabbithole and show us more facts. <3
RinkanoThank you for your appreciation, and yes, it's quite complicated when we start factoring everything out, but once you find a logical pattern, it becomes simpler and more intuitive, and in this case, In short, the more you invest, the greater the return you get from sources of extra damage beyond raw attack
That is one hell of dedication! Really appreciate the effort.
It's interesting to see how the game works, knowing that the flat atk > %atk & %elemental > %atk, whereas in HSR that's not the case. Quite tricky, just as how some potentials in characters aren't exactly necesarry lol this game really need a lot of reading.
Yup, but my calculations only took into account one additional status instance 🤡 Now I'm seeing how these values behave if you have, for example, two pieces with 25% extra Attack against one piece with 25% attack and one with 16% elemental damage
Glltywell, better than no testing lol It's not easy to conduct experiments when you're not part of the dev, can't have everything perfect!
Btw, I also find it interesting that the rasio between Crit.chance & Crit.damage here aren't exactly 1:2. The maximum main stat value for C.Chance is 27% and C.Damage is only 40.7%.
Even on character potential upgrades, we start with 2% C.Chance and only 2.4% C.Damage (tho the increment of C.Damage is slightly higher)
Based on my experience in HSR, people suggests to have around 1:2 ratio of C.Chance:C.Damage.
I've always prefer raising C.chance, but this just boost it for me, especially since getting a high C.chance in CZN is a bit harder based on the values of either main stat/substat, as they're not as huge as HSR's
BweetI plan to do dedicated tests on this as well, but it's much more complicated to put on paper; But for now, what I can tell you is that if the character has some kind of critical chance steroid, and manages to exceed 60%, having critical damage instead of attack becomes much more rewarding in means of big numbers, in exchange for slightly less consistency (which is why the Executioner's set is extremely strong, 2 pieces and +25% CDmg is quite a lot)